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	<title>Comments on: A Short Essay about Serious Games</title>
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		<title>By: Owen Lynn</title>
		<link>https://braid-game.com/news/2008/07/a-short-essay-about-serious-games/#comment-7186</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Owen Lynn]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 13:35:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://braid-game.com/news/?p=236#comment-7186</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Your mention of a &quot;wankathon&quot; and mind control made me think of a video series.

You might be interested in a torrent pack - search for Jonathan/Adampants at your favorite torrent site. I think it&#039;s about 200-300Mb, doesn&#039;t take too long to download with a high speed connection.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your mention of a &#8220;wankathon&#8221; and mind control made me think of a video series.</p>
<p>You might be interested in a torrent pack &#8211; search for Jonathan/Adampants at your favorite torrent site. I think it&#8217;s about 200-300Mb, doesn&#8217;t take too long to download with a high speed connection.</p>
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		<title>By: Gerry</title>
		<link>https://braid-game.com/news/2008/07/a-short-essay-about-serious-games/#comment-2341</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gerry]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 21:28:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://braid-game.com/news/?p=236#comment-2341</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry, but there have been many experiments done on the power of thought and prayer (don&#039;t know about &quot;wanking&quot;), but there is no credible evidence that a bunch of people thinking or doing something at the same time has any sort of paranormal powers.

There are many reasons why a comic book might increase in readership that don&#039;t require a paranormal explanation. If anything it&#039;s most likely that the only way the wankathon affected the circulation of the comic was through the publicity of the stunt bringing awareness to the comic.

Participants in video games willingly give up control to be entertained. I don&#039;t see how this is different than watching a movie, or a TV show, or reading a book. I don&#039;t think there&#039;s anything about video games that gives them any more power than those mediums.

In fact, the appeal of GTA to most people in not following that yellow line. As soon as I had the chance to I left the yellow line, and had my own adventures in the world of the game. And I think that choice and participation in games are a good thing, not a mechanism for mind control.  Granted, the choices we have a few... Leaving the yellow line in GTA usually means going on an orgy of vehicular mayhem, but we have the choices nonetheless.

I believe that games have a potential beyond just being an entertaining diversion. I believe that they can have the power to change people&#039;s minds, and make them think, and feel things that are not possible in other mediums. I don&#039;t think games have even scratched the surface yet of what&#039;s possible. However, the idea of using video games as a mechanism to effect change through paranormal energy that most likely doesn&#039;t exist just seems like a waste of time in my opinion.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, but there have been many experiments done on the power of thought and prayer (don&#8217;t know about &#8220;wanking&#8221;), but there is no credible evidence that a bunch of people thinking or doing something at the same time has any sort of paranormal powers.</p>
<p>There are many reasons why a comic book might increase in readership that don&#8217;t require a paranormal explanation. If anything it&#8217;s most likely that the only way the wankathon affected the circulation of the comic was through the publicity of the stunt bringing awareness to the comic.</p>
<p>Participants in video games willingly give up control to be entertained. I don&#8217;t see how this is different than watching a movie, or a TV show, or reading a book. I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s anything about video games that gives them any more power than those mediums.</p>
<p>In fact, the appeal of GTA to most people in not following that yellow line. As soon as I had the chance to I left the yellow line, and had my own adventures in the world of the game. And I think that choice and participation in games are a good thing, not a mechanism for mind control.  Granted, the choices we have a few&#8230; Leaving the yellow line in GTA usually means going on an orgy of vehicular mayhem, but we have the choices nonetheless.</p>
<p>I believe that games have a potential beyond just being an entertaining diversion. I believe that they can have the power to change people&#8217;s minds, and make them think, and feel things that are not possible in other mediums. I don&#8217;t think games have even scratched the surface yet of what&#8217;s possible. However, the idea of using video games as a mechanism to effect change through paranormal energy that most likely doesn&#8217;t exist just seems like a waste of time in my opinion.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Blow</title>
		<link>https://braid-game.com/news/2008/07/a-short-essay-about-serious-games/#comment-2323</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jonathan Blow]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 19:04:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://braid-game.com/news/?p=236#comment-2323</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I am not aware of any bug.  The correct behavior of the key in that level does seem like a bug to a lot of people.

(This is a weird posting under which to file these comments, but hey!)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not aware of any bug.  The correct behavior of the key in that level does seem like a bug to a lot of people.</p>
<p>(This is a weird posting under which to file these comments, but hey!)</p>
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		<title>By: dee</title>
		<link>https://braid-game.com/news/2008/07/a-short-essay-about-serious-games/#comment-2321</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 19:02:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://braid-game.com/news/?p=236#comment-2321</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jonathan,

The game is so solid - remarkable creation - I understand the way the game works completely but I really think the key handling in Fickle Companion has a glitch around the level. Particularly around ladders.

PLEASE TELL ME I AM WRONG, I LOVE THIS GAME.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jonathan,</p>
<p>The game is so solid &#8211; remarkable creation &#8211; I understand the way the game works completely but I really think the key handling in Fickle Companion has a glitch around the level. Particularly around ladders.</p>
<p>PLEASE TELL ME I AM WRONG, I LOVE THIS GAME.</p>
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		<title>By: Kim</title>
		<link>https://braid-game.com/news/2008/07/a-short-essay-about-serious-games/#comment-2058</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 05:51:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://braid-game.com/news/?p=236#comment-2058</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hmm... I find the mind-control thing is a little thick. I view it more as a combination of pre-set expectations and a level of trust.

I open a board box and it says dole out pieces/cards as follows, roll dice, etc. I do so, based on an expectation of where it&#039;s going. Same goes for TV. &quot;tune in next week....&quot;. 

You can blow that trust and have no mind control left. TV news has blown it with me. &quot;Is your home full of cancer and evil? tune in after the break!&quot; - no thanks. Same can happen with games that ask too much of you before providing some reward, etc.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm&#8230; I find the mind-control thing is a little thick. I view it more as a combination of pre-set expectations and a level of trust.</p>
<p>I open a board box and it says dole out pieces/cards as follows, roll dice, etc. I do so, based on an expectation of where it&#8217;s going. Same goes for TV. &#8220;tune in next week&#8230;.&#8221;. </p>
<p>You can blow that trust and have no mind control left. TV news has blown it with me. &#8220;Is your home full of cancer and evil? tune in after the break!&#8221; &#8211; no thanks. Same can happen with games that ask too much of you before providing some reward, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Visschers</title>
		<link>https://braid-game.com/news/2008/07/a-short-essay-about-serious-games/#comment-2031</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Visschers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Aug 2008 09:48:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://braid-game.com/news/?p=236#comment-2031</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t really see much of a difference in the reward/punishment system in games than in real life, except that games are usually far more direct. Unlike in real life, there is no choice to be made between long-term and short-term goals, and often there are no conflicting goals. In the case of GTA, there is no reason to do anything but follow the yellow line, but that doesn&#039;t make it mind control.

And for the rewards being imaginary, that doesn&#039;t make them inherently less meaningful than &quot;real&quot; rewards. This is because the experience is often more important than the eventual reward, or it is the reward. For me this goes in both games and real-life. I for one would never do a job I hate just because it pays well. Of course this is a choice that many people don&#039;t even have, since they would starve and be homeless. But then having a crappy job is a much better experience than starving in the streets.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t really see much of a difference in the reward/punishment system in games than in real life, except that games are usually far more direct. Unlike in real life, there is no choice to be made between long-term and short-term goals, and often there are no conflicting goals. In the case of GTA, there is no reason to do anything but follow the yellow line, but that doesn&#8217;t make it mind control.</p>
<p>And for the rewards being imaginary, that doesn&#8217;t make them inherently less meaningful than &#8220;real&#8221; rewards. This is because the experience is often more important than the eventual reward, or it is the reward. For me this goes in both games and real-life. I for one would never do a job I hate just because it pays well. Of course this is a choice that many people don&#8217;t even have, since they would starve and be homeless. But then having a crappy job is a much better experience than starving in the streets.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Blow</title>
		<link>https://braid-game.com/news/2008/07/a-short-essay-about-serious-games/#comment-2030</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jonathan Blow]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Aug 2008 09:41:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://braid-game.com/news/?p=236#comment-2030</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yeah, I wrote it.

This is a rant, which means it is not supposed to be an ironclad argument supported carefully from beginning to end.  It&#039;d be very difficult to do that for any idea of significance in 3 minutes, anyway.  The goal was mainly to get ideas flowing.  And to be entertaining.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I wrote it.</p>
<p>This is a rant, which means it is not supposed to be an ironclad argument supported carefully from beginning to end.  It&#8217;d be very difficult to do that for any idea of significance in 3 minutes, anyway.  The goal was mainly to get ideas flowing.  And to be entertaining.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Zaphos</title>
		<link>https://braid-game.com/news/2008/07/a-short-essay-about-serious-games/#comment-2028</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zaphos]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Aug 2008 01:15:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://braid-game.com/news/?p=236#comment-2028</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Did you write this?  For some reason I thought it was by someone else.

In consideration of the time limit, I would probably try to find some simple idea that I can convey clearly in that time span.  And I&#039;d probably avoid tangents.

I suppose I was abusing the phrase &#039;not even wrong&#039; -- mainly I just meant that the &quot;paranormal&quot; bit evokes hundredth-monkey nonsense in my mind and it annoys me.

To address the essay in specifics, the &#039;video games as mind control&#039; part is a bit interesting but not new to me and I think the essay ignores the clearly limited scope of the &#039;mind control&#039; just to sound dramatic.  The paranormal stuff is just silly.  The Bertrand Russel quote is cool, but a stretch.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did you write this?  For some reason I thought it was by someone else.</p>
<p>In consideration of the time limit, I would probably try to find some simple idea that I can convey clearly in that time span.  And I&#8217;d probably avoid tangents.</p>
<p>I suppose I was abusing the phrase &#8216;not even wrong&#8217; &#8212; mainly I just meant that the &#8220;paranormal&#8221; bit evokes hundredth-monkey nonsense in my mind and it annoys me.</p>
<p>To address the essay in specifics, the &#8216;video games as mind control&#8217; part is a bit interesting but not new to me and I think the essay ignores the clearly limited scope of the &#8216;mind control&#8217; just to sound dramatic.  The paranormal stuff is just silly.  The Bertrand Russel quote is cool, but a stretch.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Blow</title>
		<link>https://braid-game.com/news/2008/07/a-short-essay-about-serious-games/#comment-2027</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jonathan Blow]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Aug 2008 00:11:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://braid-game.com/news/?p=236#comment-2027</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Zaphos, if you think *this* was poorly-structured, you should have seen the other entries in the Opinion Jam.  Though I am curious as to how you would stucture a 3-minute rant in a significantly better way.

As for Not Even Wrong, that only applies to science, and the majority of the world is not science (at the present time).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zaphos, if you think *this* was poorly-structured, you should have seen the other entries in the Opinion Jam.  Though I am curious as to how you would stucture a 3-minute rant in a significantly better way.</p>
<p>As for Not Even Wrong, that only applies to science, and the majority of the world is not science (at the present time).</p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>https://braid-game.com/news/2008/07/a-short-essay-about-serious-games/#comment-2024</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joe]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:16:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://braid-game.com/news/?p=236#comment-2024</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I dont think gamers don&#039;t do things because the game tells them to, or at least they wont do it for very long. They do it for the experience of getting a gold piece and the hope of more new experiences through the hard limit.

If the game says collect gold coins, if the gamer is just getting the same experience over and over again, then he will quickly master it and because there is no limit, quickly get bored/give up.

Introduce a coin limit and now there is incentive to get all the coins, because maybe after collecting X coins, you will achieve a new experience.

Vary the number of ways to collect all the coins on a level with different difficulty/technique/etc and you are giving them even more experiences.

Make the coin limit such that the gamer has collected enough coins to get a feel for a range of experiences but not so many that it becomes monotomous and you have a fun game to play because something new is always offered by the game.

Gamers want to be given experiences, the commands are just guidelines.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I dont think gamers don&#8217;t do things because the game tells them to, or at least they wont do it for very long. They do it for the experience of getting a gold piece and the hope of more new experiences through the hard limit.</p>
<p>If the game says collect gold coins, if the gamer is just getting the same experience over and over again, then he will quickly master it and because there is no limit, quickly get bored/give up.</p>
<p>Introduce a coin limit and now there is incentive to get all the coins, because maybe after collecting X coins, you will achieve a new experience.</p>
<p>Vary the number of ways to collect all the coins on a level with different difficulty/technique/etc and you are giving them even more experiences.</p>
<p>Make the coin limit such that the gamer has collected enough coins to get a feel for a range of experiences but not so many that it becomes monotomous and you have a fun game to play because something new is always offered by the game.</p>
<p>Gamers want to be given experiences, the commands are just guidelines.</p>
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